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The International Simutrans Forum > Requests and Discussion > Bug Reports > Closed Bug Reports (Moderator: whoami) > Topic: 99.05.1 Underground selection error
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Topic: 99.05.1 Underground selection error  (Read 1195 times)
MarkN
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99.05.1 Underground selection error
Last Edit: December 20, 2006, 06:18:35 AM by MarkN
When using underground tracks in 99.05.1 with  Using PAK 128 v 1.3.8, if the track goes more than 1 level below ground, as happens in towns that have slopes in them, the square that have the underground track in them are very difficult to select. If the tool selected in building tunnels, the cursor seems to avoid a square with track at more than 1 level underground in it, while if the tool that is selected in something that operates on ways (signals, electrification or stations), the track can be selected with some mouse positions over the square, but not others, with the pixels the mouse pointer is on when the track can be selected being in a chess-board pattern.

EDIT: this also occurs in  Using PAK 64
fagonella
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Re: 99.05.1 Underground selection error
Confirmed. This problem is there since the very first underground system.
Phantom25
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Re: 99.05.1 Underground selection error
This is how it orighinaly worked, yes.

The trick is to select lower upper square.

Also, current underground mode restrictions noticed:

- No undergorund slopes (I saw in some post, they are being thought of Wink ), this would be great. This would allow tracks to pass underneath and different level overground entry/exits, which are difficult to achive in some difficult city sitautions.

- Only tunneltool can be used to build, but not the track(type) tool. This makes speed restrictions underground impossible. I do not understand WHY  lol in heavans name, the track tool does not emulate tunnel tool. Underground, track tool is senseless. It would be more intitive, if tracktool would be used to build tracks/roads, not tunnel tool. This is most confusing sometimes...

- Only one level is possible. What is possible, is to connect two same level heights (like earlier tunnels did), althorough also this is also diagonally possible. But you must currently find the skill yourself to do it by trying;)  It took me a while;)

- When building an upper underground level i.e. station, and over it an upper underground station, you cannot remove the below before the above (althorough they act together as hub correctly).

- Only directly one level above ground ways (tracks, roads) behave as expected. Everything else is too little intuitive...
Isaac.Eiland-Hall
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Re: 99.05.1 Underground selection error
(Reminder: Underground code is new, and what is released is more of a beta or working preview)
kierongreen
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Re: 99.05.1 Underground selection error
Quote
Only tunneltool can be used to build, but not the track(type) tool. This makes speed restrictions underground impossible. I do not understand WHY  lol in heavans name, the track tool does not emulate tunnel tool. Underground, track tool is senseless. It would be more intitive, if tracktool would be used to build tracks/roads, not tunnel tool. This is most confusing sometimes...

I can see where you are coming from (indeed that was how I expected it would be implemented), however the reason that the tunnel tool is used is because:
You are building tunnels, rather than track, hence the price should be that of a tunnel, not plain track.
To make the track tool have a cost that varied would confuse people according to prissi - even if the tool tip was altered.
Quote

- No undergorund slopes (I saw in some post, they are being thought of Wink ), this would be great. This would allow tracks to pass underneath and different level overground entry/exits, which are difficult to achive in some difficult city sitautions.
...
- Only one level is possible. What is possible, is to connect two same level heights (like earlier tunnels did), althorough also this is also diagonally possible. But you must currently find the skill yourself to do it by trying;)  It took me a while;)

Note - underground slopes are not under active development. I don't think they are a priority for prissi, and I've got other things I want to do. That isn't to say that these won't happen, but it won't be anytime soon I would have thought.
If you look elsewhere on the forum you will find a description of how to use a short overground transition to change the level of tracks underground.
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- When building an upper underground level i.e. station, and over it an upper underground station, you cannot remove the below before the above (althorough they act together as hub correctly).
- Only directly one level above ground ways (tracks, roads) behave as expected. Everything else is too little intuitive...

Control key is your friend. Behaviour underground is the same as on and above the ground:
When you build something on a way by default it is built on the lowest available way.
The same applies when removing. By default the object on the lower way is removed first, if control is pressed then that on the upper way is.
Seems fairly intuitive to me. As for more levels, this has been discussed before and I am against it due to the complicated layouts that would result, not to mention a horrendous UI to make these possible.

Anyway, as for the checkerboard effect, no idea why this happens - it may be because that mouse position has two possible tiles to select. Part of the reason that underground tracks are difficult to select is that the area for selection is the surface tile (as for bridges), and it is difficult to intuitively find the tile that the underground track is associated with visually (this problem also occurs on high bridges).
Also I can't get t-junctions to construct properly either. I might look at these problems - but no guarantees...
Phantom25
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Re: 99.05.1 Underground selection error
Last Edit: December 24, 2006, 01:47:34 PM by Phantom25
Thanks, kierongreen, for such extensive explaination.

Just for the clearification sake, I did not say underground mode was implemented badly, in contrarty, it is wunderfull to have the possibility to build underground, and also it works suprisingly well, once you get the hang of it;)

I must agree, that having bridges made the same way would be great, to have curved bridges, like in reallity, and also elevated ways, like in reallity. Wink

P.S. you are right, the checkeboard effect may be to pak128, I will try to play with pak64...

The trick with ctrl removing underground I did not know. Thanks, Now I understand, that only the level crossings one under one are possible.

Regarding the short overground transition , I am already using this trick, and it actually works without crashes.

 I just hoped once underground slopes will be possible Wink This would be great, for reality sake.  y_worship
MarkN
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Re: 99.05.1 Underground selection error
I have checked and the checkerboard effect occurs in pak64 as well, while the problem with selecting the existing track is  more than just a difficulty with visualising the existing levels as with the mouse in a position that would select the square with no underground available the square directly above the underground is selected if there is already underground track in that squre more than one level below ground.
gulli
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Building undergrounds two levels down
I've just upgraded to the latest version after having stubbornly played 88.10.05 for a long time. I'm just starting to test building undergrounds and I know I can't go between levels underground and that's fine for now. But, I'm having problems building tracks where I want them to be more than one level down, seems I can't add to these tracks. Is this a known problem or am I missing something?

I did try searching for a solution on the forums but didn't find anything about this.

My setup:
WinXP SP2
Simutrans 99.09.3 SDL
Pak128 1-4-2 (pre)

This picture shows where I run into the problem - the tunnel building tool just doesn't want to get to the right position for me to start building. I can build into the hill or all the way under it but can't make a turn or add to the track where it lies currently.

* underground.png (250.75 KB, 1280x989 - viewed 61 times.)
kierongreen
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Re: Building undergrounds two levels down
It is difficult to select underground (the lower the track, the more difficult). Not really anyway round this (at the moment anyway). All I can suggest is moving the cursor around slightly to see if you can select the track.
MarkN
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Re: Building undergrounds two levels down
Kieron: It isn't just difficult to build indergroud, but when the mouse is in the right position to select a square with track on it, the cursor is selecting the square immediately above if the track is two or more levels down, and when you move the mouse downwards the cursor jumps to a position directly below the track in a mouse move of one pixel.
When other tools are selected that act on track, (signals, for instance) a completely different behavoiur is seen where the square with track on it can be seleceted, but only on half of the pixels over that square (in a chquered pattern). If you wand to se what I mean, build a tunnel 2 squares below graound and then try to extend it from that or to build signals on it.
kierongreen
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Re: Building undergrounds two levels down
I am aware of this - in some situations it's difficult at 2 levels down, in others it's impossible. However I've just recoded the selection underground so this might be solved with the next release.
Breeze646
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This is what happens when you mix D60LFs with Snow
Re: 99.05.1 Underground selection error
What I do is make turns where there is roadspace so I can tear up a square and lower it with tile cutters then voila, problem solved. (Also I should mention to put elevation back and road surface back after your done lol)

If it's just going straight, click the lower level and have it go as far as you want it to go.
Ontario, Canada





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Vladimír Slávik
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Re: 99.05.1 Underground selection error
You can plan the way on surface: if you place cursor there and switch to underground, it stays on the position so carefully click (so as not to move mouse), switch back to normal, move to next place, switch underground, click... Lengthy and requires careful planning, but works.

Tools for messing with Simutrans graphics. Template archive - templates and some other stuff for painters.
Isaac.Eiland-Hall
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Re: 99.05.1 Underground selection error
^^ needs to find its way to tips&tricks!

I've used that before - not moving the cursor to affect the same tile... but that's an excellent extension of the idea!
kierongreen
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Re: 99.05.1 Underground selection error
Hopefully it won't be necessary soon!
Posted on: 09-04-2007, 22:16:50
Fixed in 99.10 - moving to closed reports.
The International Simutrans Forum > Requests and Discussion > Bug Reports > Closed Bug Reports (Moderator: whoami) > Topic: 99.05.1 Underground selection error